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Agenda

  • Charter Review: Tools Team Charter
  • Confluence progress
  • Jira vs Trello vs writing on the back of our hands
  • Tools Team co-ordination with BIT
  • Build Tools
  • UML Modeling
  • Debugging and Analysis
  • Automated Testing (CIAT?)
    • One concrete issue that I think the tools team ought to look at is the continuous integration and/or automation of building binaries with the artifacts from Eclipse around Common API.
    • I'm close to completing the template for an automated test suite for GDP: TAP test suite (perl test harness)
      • I'd like feedback and testing 
  • GENIVI AMM
  • Topics to raise at AGL AMM this week?
  • AOB

paulsher1ood== GENIVI Tools Team Starts ==13:00
*** philrob has joined #automotive13:00
paulsher1oodanone here? :)13:00
philrobhi there !13:00
paulsher1oodhi philrob13:00
paulsher1oodthis time i managed to post an agenda... which begins by reviewing the charterr (https://genivi-oss.atlassian.net/wiki/display/TOOL/Tools+Team+Charter)13:01
paulsher1oodthe main reason i  added this was i wanted to be sure we're workign on the right things13:02
paulsher1oodafaik we've had (almost) no discussion on somoe of the tools mentioned there13:02
paulsher1oodi wanted to check if we need to modify either the charter, or our work or both?13:03
paulsher1oodphilrob: do you have any view on this?13:03
philrobnot at this point13:04
paulsher1oodok13:04
paulsher1oodif others have no comments either i'll proceed to the rest of the agenda13:04
*** pavelk has joined #automotive13:05
philrobexcept the question of commonapi tools13:05
*** BjoernC has joined #automotive13:05
paulsher1ood(the agenda includes line items for the topics from the charter)13:05
paulsher1oodphilrob: please go ahead13:05
philrobas every knows, common api tech and tooling are central to genivi, how to disseminate it is very important, how can the tool team improve this ?13:07
jeremiahhi!13:07
paulsher1oodphilrob: not sure i understand the question?13:07
jeremiahphilrob++13:07
jeremiahI think Philippe is referring to the Franca / Common API deliverables that right now come out of Eclipse13:08
philrob@jeremiah: are the ++ for common api topic ?13:08
paulsher1oodi agree they're importany, but can you highlight the problem/issue specifically?13:08
jeremiahThis does not fit well in a continuous intergration environment.13:08
jeremiahphilrob: yes, this is an important topic I feel.13:08
pavelkone can use command line tools with capi-c++ 3.1+13:08
pavelkI acutally tried this13:08
paulsher1oodjeremiah: maybe it's an advantage that we don't have one yet? :)13:08
pavelkthe only dependency is java13:09
jeremiah:)13:09
pavelk...and libc, etc.13:09
jeremiahpavelk: How does one do this?13:09
jeremiahAh, its in the new version.13:09
pavelkthere are binaries on yamaica update site13:09
pavelkthey only require java and bundle the rest of dependencies inside them13:09
jeremiahOkay, excellent. We ought to have a write up on that for the BIT perhaps.13:09
pavelkwith the tools one can generate the code13:09
jeremiahCan one use an Open Source Java?13:10
*** gunnarx has joined #automotive13:10
pavelkI will eventually have to put together a setup where this works as a part of a yocto recipe13:10
jeremiahOh really?13:10
pavelkI have some ideas by now, but will have to come with the first versino of the generators for capi-c13:10
jeremiahThat would be great to know more about since it might get incorporated into any proposed CI system13:10
pavelkopenjdk works just fine13:11
jeremiahJacques Guillou developed a tool to do this too, I don't know if it is maintained13:11
jeremiahI can ask him what he did and get him to write an email?13:11
gunnarxthere is an open TT topic on integrated java/capi tools...13:11
paulsher1oodphilrob: what did you mean by disseminate wrt this, please?13:11
gunnarxare you up for it pavelk ?13:11
pavelkgunnarx: up to what?13:12
philrobI mean advertize and promote the techno with other communities13:12
gunnarxfiguring out how to do it13:12
pavelkyes, this is what I will eventually need for capic13:12
paulsher1oodi guess we *could*, but that's maybe a more egeneral question than commonapi? why would we do that for just this?13:13
pavelkwhat is currently not quite clear to me is the best / recommended way to use java as a part of the build tool chain on the host13:13
pavelkthere are several way that work, but I will have to research the current state of the art a little bit more13:14
pavelk( the above is in the context of yocto build)13:14
pavelkin a summary, generating capi code with yocto boils down to installing two additional tools as a part of the tool chain on the host13:15
pavelkone is java and another one is the generator binary provided by e.g. capic-c++13:16
paulsher1oodsimilar for baserock, i expect. but who would maintain the results?13:16
pavelknobody?13:16
paulsher1oodis that a solution?13:16
pavelkthe only things to maintain would be the recipes13:16
pavelkthe generated code is throw-away13:16
pavelkthe generators would have to be maintained by the capi projects13:17
paulsher1oodok13:17
gunnarxI see pavelk is also (the only) participant on the Trello card in question.  Sorry I came in late - I am now caught up on the logs, all is well. :)13:17
paulsher1ood:)13:17
paulsher1oodso i think you have actions pavelk - do you need any help on this?13:18
pavelkI will ask once I bump into questions--thanks13:18
jeremiahIts likely part of his Common API C - PoC13:18
jeremiah:-)13:18
pavelkyep :-)13:18
paulsher1oodcan someone comment on philrob's question  about dissemination?13:18
jeremiahI believe the dissemination in question is how to get the common API generators out of Eclipse13:19
jeremiahWithout human intervention13:19
paulsher1oodhe mentioned promotion too?13:19
pavelkI was thinking about a conference talk (elc or als) for the next year about capi in general13:19
pavelkbut this is very fuzzy for now13:20
philrobwho knows why Franca moved away from Eclipse ?13:20
pavelk???13:20
gunnarxphilrob:  it hasn't moved from Eclipse afaik?13:20
jeremiahI thought it was going to be an official plugin?13:20
pavelkthey moved to github13:20
gunnarxIt moved some repos from google code however13:21
pavelkafaik, they still wait to become an official eclipse project13:21
gunnarxbecause google was shutting down that service IIRC13:21
jeremiahThat's because Google Code is going away, no?13:21
gunnarxright13:21
gunnarxpavelk:  your line starting with "in summary" is a solution.  yocto by convention builds all the tools to minimize host dependencies so I think people have assumed that also java would be built and that it would be difficult (never heard why), but placing it as a host dependency might be acceptable.13:21
pavelkwell, both is possible13:22
pavelksome folks (e.g., Mark Hatle) suggest the shortcut of using prebuilt binaries13:22
gunnarxI'd welcome analysis of each option by someone.  I only hear "it is hard" with little details from the baseline maintainers.13:22
pavelkaltnernatively, meta-java could possibly be used to build it from scratch (need to check, though)13:22
gunnarxphilrob:  you're right, EclipseLabs is apparently shut down, not only google code (according to mail from klausb)13:23
gunnarxphilrob:  Anyhow, that's the reason and I suppose it does not affect us much13:24
philrobagreed13:24
* paulsher1ood has added a card for 'dissemination of common-api' https://trello.com/c/WbkjiXl713:24
philrobthx, Paul13:24
paulsher1oodok,... please let's move on13:24
gunnarxack13:24
paulsher1ood= Progress on Confluence =13:24
paulsher1oodi have migrated the content that i created now, including minutes13:25
paulsher1oodit took me a few hours. i would rather not do this again :(13:25
*** toscalix__ is now known as toscalix13:25
paulsher1oodi see several parked cards for this... can they be brought to life again?13:26
pavelkI was hoping to have the hierarchy / organization fixed before starting the big migration13:26
pavelkotoh, migrating local page hierarchies would probably work as well13:27
paulsher1oodwe were told that the organization wouldn't affect anything13:27
paulsher1oodiirc13:27
pavelk...unless the page hierarchy and possibly naming does not matter13:27
pavelkcorrection: do matter13:28
gunnarxmoving pages between spaces should be easy13:28
pavelkso, what are spaces then13:28
pavelkshould eac h topic create its own space?13:28
jeremiahI think for now, yes.13:28
gunnarxjoel!  :)13:28
jeremiahheh13:28
jeremiahThere is a bit of a chicken/egg problem13:29
jeremiahNo data means no hierarchy.13:29
pavelkI will probably move a local capic hierarchy to /somewhere/ on the public wiki13:29
jeremiahSo if we can start to use new projects as templates for organization13:29
paulsher1oodwell, ok. but at this rate i feel that one of things i'll have to report re tools team at the amm is that we almost got our wiki content tidy!13:29
jeremiahpavelk: I've asked for a JIRA for you13:29
pavelkjeremiah: we do have the old hierarchy (in two places meanwhile)13:29
gunnarxre page names: the only thing I've noticed on GENIVI wiki is that the search box has a global namespace.  So it's not good to have an "unimportant" page inside an "unimportant" space to be named as something else that 80% of people are actually searching for.13:29
pavelkjeremiah: thanks for jira13:29
jeremiahgunnarx: Good point.13:30
gunnarxpeople end up on the unimportant page...13:30
philrobFYI joel said last week he would prefer waiting for +2 weeks (until 24 Sep then) before populating confluence on a wider scale13:30
pavelkthe other thing that I would prefere to have fixed asap is the URL to wiki pages13:30
gunnarxthat said, for the public wiki I'd still propose simple setup, quite flat hierarchy, and straight forward names (i.e. not GENIVISysInfraGroupComponentXMeetingMinutesMeeting20150101)13:30
pavelkotherwise it is difficult to point to them from elsewhere (internal wiki, readmes, etc.)13:31
* paulsher1ood doesn't know what to say on this13:31
pavelkgunnarx: simple setup is ok, we just need to point to one13:32
jeremiahgunnarx: Shouldn't it be GENIVI/SI-EG/Component/ ?13:32
paulsher1oodshall we leave confluence for 2 weeks, then?13:32
gunnarx+1.  the current statement is "start migrating content" but I'm not sure I agree that it really works.  Stable URL soon I hope.13:32
gunnarxjeremiah:  afaik, slashes appear only if you have a separate space13:32
* paulsher1ood wishes he'd never introduced the topic13:32
gunnarxpaulsher1ood needs thicker skin.  no offense :)13:32
gunnarxyou want to move on paulsher1ood ?13:33
paulsher1oodalways :)13:33
gunnarx:)13:33
paulsher1ood= Jira vs Trello vs writing on the back of our hands =13:33
paulsher1oodwe've been 'using' trello. but now there's a jira too. are we going to switch? or use something elsee?13:34
pavelkmy personal efficiency is inversely proportional to the number of tools used for the same purpose13:34
gunnarxhope everyone else was ready to move on... I only asked if we should...13:34
CTtpollardpavelk: +113:34
philrobFYI the stable url will come once the ongoing RfQ for hosting is completed, (hopefully end of September)13:34
paulsher1oodRfQ for hosting?13:34
philrobthis is a IT-infra question (no more comment on this)13:35
paulsher1oodok13:35
paulsher1oodjira vs trello or something else?13:35
gunnarxno opinion13:35
philrobfyi you can do in jira same todo list as in trello13:36
pavelkfrom what genivi currently has to offer, I would prefer to go with jira for capic issue tracking13:37
pavelkby extension, i would prefer to stick to this tools for other issue tracking as well13:37
paulsher1oodjeremiah: ?13:37
jeremiah:-)13:37
pavelkunknown tool ":-)"13:37
jeremiahI'm going to use what everyone else uses.13:37
jeremiah¯\_(ツ)_/¯13:38
pavelkjeremiah: cool13:38
paulsher1oodso that seems to be +1 for jira, no other preferences?\13:39
* paulsher1ood noticies how slow today's meeting is13:39
jeremiahThe new JIRA has a Kanban tool13:39
jeremiahFWIW13:40
paulsher1oodack13:40
BjoernCi prefer jira13:40
paulsher1oodthanks BjoernC13:40
paulsher1oodso +2 for jira... any against?13:40
* paulsher1ood proposes we start using the pulbic jira, then13:41
philrobBjoern: ++1 for Kanban, I have just check Jeremiah's kanban board13:41
CTtpollardI've not used it so I can't vote13:41
paulsher1oodphilrob: you mean jira kanban?13:41
philrobyes13:41
paulsher1oodsold, then.13:41
paulsher1oodnext...13:42
paulsher1ood= Tools Team co-ordination with BIT =13:42
paulsher1oodjeremiah: how do you think this would work best? you know all the parties i think13:42
pavelkpaulsher1ood: is this about the process in general, or rather about the current issues?13:43
paulsher1oodpavelk: both13:43
paulsher1oodif there are current issues, please raise them13:43
pavelkcapi code generation :-)13:43
gunnarxneed to remind myself what the issue is here, except for capi already covered13:44
pavelkautomated code generation as a part of the build13:44
pavelkthis is more of a mid-term issue, to be sure13:44
jeremiahhmm13:44
pavelkthere is an interim solution for the current release afaik13:45
pavelkgunnarx: that's what I mean--it is already covered earlier today13:45
gunnarxcan't find any more info in TT/Minutes.  No trello card right?13:45
jeremiahI think the issue is coordinating GDP with the baselines13:46
gunnarxah13:46
paulsher1oodyes, i think so too13:46
gunnarxnot sure it's a tools issue?13:46
jeremiahNow that we're seeing some fixes of meta-ivi, we seem to have decent communication13:46
jeremiahBut that probably needs to be a bit more formal and make its way into PMO13:46
gunnarxI'd say maintainer (of GDP) is the one driving GDP to adopt the latest baseline, basically.  anyone see a problem with that principle?13:47
jeremiahCurrently we're just watching the meta-ivi mailing list and CTtpollard and folks are picking up things that are happening13:47
paulsher1oodok, so TT and BIT co-ordination is already hunky-dory?13:47
gunnarxyou tell me, who added the item?13:47
jeremiahgunnarx: I'd agree. Perhaps then the GDP maintainer (continues) to be part of the BIT?13:47
gunnarxI'm not aware of what the concern is, that's all13:47
gunnarx^^ paulsher1ood13:48
paulsher1oodi added it. i'm just checking13:48
gunnarxok13:48
paulsher1oodif folks are happy, that's fine13:48
jeremiahMy worry is that there are bugs and patches lingering on the meta-ivi list13:48
jeremiahBut it looks like they're being addressed13:48
jeremiahso perhaps its not the end of the world13:48
gunnarxGDP maintainer welcome to join BIT, I doubt it's necessary all the time.  baseline releases aren't that frequent13:48
jeremiahAgreed.13:48
gunnarxjeremiah: valid concern but not something TT will solve probably13:49
paulsher1oodsimilarly baseline maintainers would be welcome to participate in public here :)13:49
jeremiah:)13:49
paulsher1oodok moving on then?13:49
paulsher1ood= Build Tools =13:50
paulsher1ood(from the charter)13:50
paulsher1oodanything to discuss on this?13:51
gunnarxah. I think the charter has already been broken down into topics, items, actions...?13:51
gunnarxe.g. debian principle, franca_automation, sdks...13:51
pavelk...and approved by the board13:51
paulsher1oodi'm trying to formalize our agenda so we don't miss things in future13:51
jeremiahI think that link that gunnarx discovered last week is important.13:51
jeremiahIt feels like a quick way to host sources from a build13:52
pavelkwhat link?13:52
paulsher1oodplease remind me?13:52
jeremiahwhich can allow use to push binaries13:52
jeremiahLet me find it . . .13:52
gunnarxAh, ok.  recurring topics.  I'd say it is more  efficient to stick to our cards, but those cards might need to be categorized under that agenda then.13:52
jeremiahhttp://www.yoctoproject.org/docs/1.8/mega-manual/mega-manual.html#maintaining-open-source-license-compliance-during-your-products-lifecycle13:52
gunnarxcards, tickets - whatever jira calls them them, from now on13:52
paulsher1oodthanks13:53
gunnarxok, so yeah I've looked at it...13:53
gunnarxhad some issues figuring out how it behaves actually, especially when using BB_GENERATE_TARBALLS13:53
gunnarxin some cases it goes out to fetch git from network despite a tarred up git existing...13:54
gunnarxbecause I've been controlling the source/downloads directory, have not successfully evaluated the results of inheriting "archiver" yet13:54
jeremiahokay, so it might not be ready for our use yet?13:55
gunnarxmaybe, anyone feel free to try13:55
paulsher1oodwe're running late, folks...13:56
gunnarxresults of archiver can be tried independently of my investigations into source mirror part.  just build with internet fetching as usual.13:56
gunnarxyeah I have no more to add.13:56
gunnarxpaulsher1ood:  does anyone own an action on this?13:56
paulsher1oodyou and jeremiah, iirc?13:57
gunnarxpaulsher1ood:  Is all we do on this meeting to have headings, and then people talk about what they think that heading is about?13:57
gunnarxuntil you think they talk too much?13:57
gunnarxok, you may be right.13:57
paulsher1oodgunnarx: i dont know, actually. i think i've lost my way here13:57
jeremiahheh13:58
gunnarxI propose, as part of meeting, state the action owners if there is any confusion, so people know they are expected to talk13:58
jeremiahWe've also lost some participants along the way13:58
gunnarxturns out jeremiah and I engaged anyhow.  I think we can move to the next topic.13:58
paulsher1oodok13:58
paulsher1oodI propose we can't cover the resty of the agenda in reasonable time13:59
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paulsher1oodi propose we try a conf call next week to improve things13:59
gunnarxfair enough.13:59
gunnarxyou're the boss, don't forget :)13:59
gunnarxmight be a good idea, yes,13:59
paulsher1oodthat's too complex a topic for 1 mintue13:59
gunnarxagreed13:59
paulsher1ood:)13:59
paulsher1oodAOB?14:00
paulsher1oodanything i should raise at AGL tmrw?14:00
gunnarxis it "layer design meeting"?14:00
gunnarxor something else?14:00
paulsher1ood(since this is time-sensitive)14:00
paulsher1oodAMM14:00
jeremiahpaulsher1ood: What are their plans for Lifecycle?14:00
philrobgood question14:00
paulsher1oodi meet walt for the first time14:00
jeremiahpaulsher1ood: Are they *really* going to use Android's init system?14:00
gunnarxsystemd?  (ducks)14:00
pavelkwhat is their stance to genivi compliance in general?14:01
gunnarxwait, what?14:01
paulsher1oodthere is some discussion wth Qt folsk that may affect lifecycle for them14:01
jeremiahpavelk: I think they've said they don't aim to be GENIVI compliant14:01
pavelkjeremiah: too bad....14:01
jeremiahYep14:01
gunnarxjeremiah:  you think?14:01
paulsher1oodjeremiah: i had not heard any mention of android inthat context so far, i may have missed it?14:01
paulsher1ood(or are you trolling? :-)14:02
jeremiahI'll have to look on the mailing list, but I'm pretty sure I heard that in a fairly official capacity.14:02
paulsher1oodreally?14:02
BjoernChave to leave now, bye bye14:02
jeremiahYep14:02
paulsher1oodme too :)14:02
gunnarxI think let's have proper discussions about this, not speculation or rumors.  Today seems to be unusually few AGL members in the channel, but I suppose they will catch up on logs.14:02
jeremiahLater BjoernC14:02
paulsher1oodthanks all14:02
*** BjoernC has quit IRC14:02
paulsher1ood== GENIVI Tools Team Meeting Ends ==
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