This meeting hasn't happened yet:
Agenda
- Charter Review: Tools Team Charter
- Confluence progress
- Jira vs Trello vs writing on the back of our hands
- Tools Team co-ordination with BIT
- Build Tools
- UML Modeling
- Debugging and Analysis
- Automated Testing (CIAT?)
- One concrete issue that I think the tools team ought to look at is the continuous integration and/or automation of building binaries with the artifacts from Eclipse around Common API.
- I'm close to completing the template for an automated test suite for GDP: TAP test suite (perl test harness)
- I'd like feedback and testing
- GENIVI AMM
- Topics to raise at AGL AMM this week?
- AOB
| paulsher1ood | == GENIVI Tools Team Starts == | 13:00 |
|---|---|---|
| *** philrob has joined #automotive | 13:00 | |
| paulsher1ood | anone here? :) | 13:00 |
| philrob | hi there ! | 13:00 |
| paulsher1ood | hi philrob | 13:00 |
| paulsher1ood | this time i managed to post an agenda... which begins by reviewing the charterr (https://genivi-oss.atlassian.net/wiki/display/TOOL/Tools+Team+Charter) | 13:01 |
| paulsher1ood | the main reason i added this was i wanted to be sure we're workign on the right things | 13:02 |
| paulsher1ood | afaik we've had (almost) no discussion on somoe of the tools mentioned there | 13:02 |
| paulsher1ood | i wanted to check if we need to modify either the charter, or our work or both? | 13:03 |
| paulsher1ood | philrob: do you have any view on this? | 13:03 |
| philrob | not at this point | 13:04 |
| paulsher1ood | ok | 13:04 |
| paulsher1ood | if others have no comments either i'll proceed to the rest of the agenda | 13:04 |
| *** pavelk has joined #automotive | 13:05 | |
| philrob | except the question of commonapi tools | 13:05 |
| *** BjoernC has joined #automotive | 13:05 | |
| paulsher1ood | (the agenda includes line items for the topics from the charter) | 13:05 |
| paulsher1ood | philrob: please go ahead | 13:05 |
| philrob | as every knows, common api tech and tooling are central to genivi, how to disseminate it is very important, how can the tool team improve this ? | 13:07 |
| jeremiah | hi! | 13:07 |
| paulsher1ood | philrob: not sure i understand the question? | 13:07 |
| jeremiah | philrob++ | 13:07 |
| jeremiah | I think Philippe is referring to the Franca / Common API deliverables that right now come out of Eclipse | 13:08 |
| philrob | @jeremiah: are the ++ for common api topic ? | 13:08 |
| paulsher1ood | i agree they're importany, but can you highlight the problem/issue specifically? | 13:08 |
| jeremiah | This does not fit well in a continuous intergration environment. | 13:08 |
| jeremiah | philrob: yes, this is an important topic I feel. | 13:08 |
| pavelk | one can use command line tools with capi-c++ 3.1+ | 13:08 |
| pavelk | I acutally tried this | 13:08 |
| paulsher1ood | jeremiah: maybe it's an advantage that we don't have one yet? :) | 13:08 |
| pavelk | the only dependency is java | 13:09 |
| jeremiah | :) | 13:09 |
| pavelk | ...and libc, etc. | 13:09 |
| jeremiah | pavelk: How does one do this? | 13:09 |
| jeremiah | Ah, its in the new version. | 13:09 |
| pavelk | there are binaries on yamaica update site | 13:09 |
| pavelk | they only require java and bundle the rest of dependencies inside them | 13:09 |
| jeremiah | Okay, excellent. We ought to have a write up on that for the BIT perhaps. | 13:09 |
| pavelk | with the tools one can generate the code | 13:09 |
| jeremiah | Can one use an Open Source Java? | 13:10 |
| *** gunnarx has joined #automotive | 13:10 | |
| pavelk | I will eventually have to put together a setup where this works as a part of a yocto recipe | 13:10 |
| jeremiah | Oh really? | 13:10 |
| pavelk | I have some ideas by now, but will have to come with the first versino of the generators for capi-c | 13:10 |
| jeremiah | That would be great to know more about since it might get incorporated into any proposed CI system | 13:10 |
| pavelk | openjdk works just fine | 13:11 |
| jeremiah | Jacques Guillou developed a tool to do this too, I don't know if it is maintained | 13:11 |
| jeremiah | I can ask him what he did and get him to write an email? | 13:11 |
| gunnarx | there is an open TT topic on integrated java/capi tools... | 13:11 |
| paulsher1ood | philrob: what did you mean by disseminate wrt this, please? | 13:11 |
| gunnarx | are you up for it pavelk ? | 13:11 |
| pavelk | gunnarx: up to what? | 13:12 |
| philrob | I mean advertize and promote the techno with other communities | 13:12 |
| gunnarx | figuring out how to do it | 13:12 |
| pavelk | yes, this is what I will eventually need for capic | 13:12 |
| paulsher1ood | i guess we *could*, but that's maybe a more egeneral question than commonapi? why would we do that for just this? | 13:13 |
| pavelk | what is currently not quite clear to me is the best / recommended way to use java as a part of the build tool chain on the host | 13:13 |
| pavelk | there are several way that work, but I will have to research the current state of the art a little bit more | 13:14 |
| pavelk | ( the above is in the context of yocto build) | 13:14 |
| pavelk | in a summary, generating capi code with yocto boils down to installing two additional tools as a part of the tool chain on the host | 13:15 |
| pavelk | one is java and another one is the generator binary provided by e.g. capic-c++ | 13:16 |
| paulsher1ood | similar for baserock, i expect. but who would maintain the results? | 13:16 |
| pavelk | nobody? | 13:16 |
| paulsher1ood | is that a solution? | 13:16 |
| pavelk | the only things to maintain would be the recipes | 13:16 |
| pavelk | the generated code is throw-away | 13:16 |
| pavelk | the generators would have to be maintained by the capi projects | 13:17 |
| paulsher1ood | ok | 13:17 |
| gunnarx | I see pavelk is also (the only) participant on the Trello card in question. Sorry I came in late - I am now caught up on the logs, all is well. :) | 13:17 |
| paulsher1ood | :) | 13:17 |
| paulsher1ood | so i think you have actions pavelk - do you need any help on this? | 13:18 |
| pavelk | I will ask once I bump into questions--thanks | 13:18 |
| jeremiah | Its likely part of his Common API C - PoC | 13:18 |
| jeremiah | :-) | 13:18 |
| pavelk | yep :-) | 13:18 |
| paulsher1ood | can someone comment on philrob's question about dissemination? | 13:18 |
| jeremiah | I believe the dissemination in question is how to get the common API generators out of Eclipse | 13:19 |
| jeremiah | Without human intervention | 13:19 |
| paulsher1ood | he mentioned promotion too? | 13:19 |
| pavelk | I was thinking about a conference talk (elc or als) for the next year about capi in general | 13:19 |
| pavelk | but this is very fuzzy for now | 13:20 |
| philrob | who knows why Franca moved away from Eclipse ? | 13:20 |
| pavelk | ??? | 13:20 |
| gunnarx | philrob: it hasn't moved from Eclipse afaik? | 13:20 |
| jeremiah | I thought it was going to be an official plugin? | 13:20 |
| pavelk | they moved to github | 13:20 |
| gunnarx | It moved some repos from google code however | 13:21 |
| pavelk | afaik, they still wait to become an official eclipse project | 13:21 |
| gunnarx | because google was shutting down that service IIRC | 13:21 |
| jeremiah | That's because Google Code is going away, no? | 13:21 |
| gunnarx | right | 13:21 |
| gunnarx | pavelk: your line starting with "in summary" is a solution. yocto by convention builds all the tools to minimize host dependencies so I think people have assumed that also java would be built and that it would be difficult (never heard why), but placing it as a host dependency might be acceptable. | 13:21 |
| pavelk | well, both is possible | 13:22 |
| pavelk | some folks (e.g., Mark Hatle) suggest the shortcut of using prebuilt binaries | 13:22 |
| gunnarx | I'd welcome analysis of each option by someone. I only hear "it is hard" with little details from the baseline maintainers. | 13:22 |
| pavelk | altnernatively, meta-java could possibly be used to build it from scratch (need to check, though) | 13:22 |
| gunnarx | philrob: you're right, EclipseLabs is apparently shut down, not only google code (according to mail from klausb) | 13:23 |
| gunnarx | philrob: Anyhow, that's the reason and I suppose it does not affect us much | 13:24 |
| philrob | agreed | 13:24 |
| * paulsher1ood has added a card for 'dissemination of common-api' https://trello.com/c/WbkjiXl7 | 13:24 | |
| philrob | thx, Paul | 13:24 |
| paulsher1ood | ok,... please let's move on | 13:24 |
| gunnarx | ack | 13:24 |
| paulsher1ood | = Progress on Confluence = | 13:24 |
| paulsher1ood | i have migrated the content that i created now, including minutes | 13:25 |
| paulsher1ood | it took me a few hours. i would rather not do this again :( | 13:25 |
| *** toscalix__ is now known as toscalix | 13:25 | |
| paulsher1ood | i see several parked cards for this... can they be brought to life again? | 13:26 |
| pavelk | I was hoping to have the hierarchy / organization fixed before starting the big migration | 13:26 |
| pavelk | otoh, migrating local page hierarchies would probably work as well | 13:27 |
| paulsher1ood | we were told that the organization wouldn't affect anything | 13:27 |
| paulsher1ood | iirc | 13:27 |
| pavelk | ...unless the page hierarchy and possibly naming does not matter | 13:27 |
| pavelk | correction: do matter | 13:28 |
| gunnarx | moving pages between spaces should be easy | 13:28 |
| pavelk | so, what are spaces then | 13:28 |
| pavelk | should eac h topic create its own space? | 13:28 |
| jeremiah | I think for now, yes. | 13:28 |
| gunnarx | joel! :) | 13:28 |
| jeremiah | heh | 13:28 |
| jeremiah | There is a bit of a chicken/egg problem | 13:29 |
| jeremiah | No data means no hierarchy. | 13:29 |
| pavelk | I will probably move a local capic hierarchy to /somewhere/ on the public wiki | 13:29 |
| jeremiah | So if we can start to use new projects as templates for organization | 13:29 |
| paulsher1ood | well, ok. but at this rate i feel that one of things i'll have to report re tools team at the amm is that we almost got our wiki content tidy! | 13:29 |
| jeremiah | pavelk: I've asked for a JIRA for you | 13:29 |
| pavelk | jeremiah: we do have the old hierarchy (in two places meanwhile) | 13:29 |
| gunnarx | re page names: the only thing I've noticed on GENIVI wiki is that the search box has a global namespace. So it's not good to have an "unimportant" page inside an "unimportant" space to be named as something else that 80% of people are actually searching for. | 13:29 |
| pavelk | jeremiah: thanks for jira | 13:29 |
| jeremiah | gunnarx: Good point. | 13:30 |
| gunnarx | people end up on the unimportant page... | 13:30 |
| philrob | FYI joel said last week he would prefer waiting for +2 weeks (until 24 Sep then) before populating confluence on a wider scale | 13:30 |
| pavelk | the other thing that I would prefere to have fixed asap is the URL to wiki pages | 13:30 |
| gunnarx | that said, for the public wiki I'd still propose simple setup, quite flat hierarchy, and straight forward names (i.e. not GENIVISysInfraGroupComponentXMeetingMinutesMeeting20150101) | 13:30 |
| pavelk | otherwise it is difficult to point to them from elsewhere (internal wiki, readmes, etc.) | 13:31 |
| * paulsher1ood doesn't know what to say on this | 13:31 | |
| pavelk | gunnarx: simple setup is ok, we just need to point to one | 13:32 |
| jeremiah | gunnarx: Shouldn't it be GENIVI/SI-EG/Component/ ? | 13:32 |
| paulsher1ood | shall we leave confluence for 2 weeks, then? | 13:32 |
| gunnarx | +1. the current statement is "start migrating content" but I'm not sure I agree that it really works. Stable URL soon I hope. | 13:32 |
| gunnarx | jeremiah: afaik, slashes appear only if you have a separate space | 13:32 |
| * paulsher1ood wishes he'd never introduced the topic | 13:32 | |
| gunnarx | paulsher1ood needs thicker skin. no offense :) | 13:32 |
| gunnarx | you want to move on paulsher1ood ? | 13:33 |
| paulsher1ood | always :) | 13:33 |
| gunnarx | :) | 13:33 |
| paulsher1ood | = Jira vs Trello vs writing on the back of our hands = | 13:33 |
| paulsher1ood | we've been 'using' trello. but now there's a jira too. are we going to switch? or use something elsee? | 13:34 |
| pavelk | my personal efficiency is inversely proportional to the number of tools used for the same purpose | 13:34 |
| gunnarx | hope everyone else was ready to move on... I only asked if we should... | 13:34 |
| CTtpollard | pavelk: +1 | 13:34 |
| philrob | FYI the stable url will come once the ongoing RfQ for hosting is completed, (hopefully end of September) | 13:34 |
| paulsher1ood | RfQ for hosting? | 13:34 |
| philrob | this is a IT-infra question (no more comment on this) | 13:35 |
| paulsher1ood | ok | 13:35 |
| paulsher1ood | jira vs trello or something else? | 13:35 |
| gunnarx | no opinion | 13:35 |
| philrob | fyi you can do in jira same todo list as in trello | 13:36 |
| pavelk | from what genivi currently has to offer, I would prefer to go with jira for capic issue tracking | 13:37 |
| pavelk | by extension, i would prefer to stick to this tools for other issue tracking as well | 13:37 |
| paulsher1ood | jeremiah: ? | 13:37 |
| jeremiah | :-) | 13:37 |
| pavelk | unknown tool ":-)" | 13:37 |
| jeremiah | I'm going to use what everyone else uses. | 13:37 |
| jeremiah | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | 13:38 |
| pavelk | jeremiah: cool | 13:38 |
| paulsher1ood | so that seems to be +1 for jira, no other preferences?\ | 13:39 |
| * paulsher1ood noticies how slow today's meeting is | 13:39 | |
| jeremiah | The new JIRA has a Kanban tool | 13:39 |
| jeremiah | FWIW | 13:40 |
| paulsher1ood | ack | 13:40 |
| BjoernC | i prefer jira | 13:40 |
| paulsher1ood | thanks BjoernC | 13:40 |
| paulsher1ood | so +2 for jira... any against? | 13:40 |
| * paulsher1ood proposes we start using the pulbic jira, then | 13:41 | |
| philrob | Bjoern: ++1 for Kanban, I have just check Jeremiah's kanban board | 13:41 |
| CTtpollard | I've not used it so I can't vote | 13:41 |
| paulsher1ood | philrob: you mean jira kanban? | 13:41 |
| philrob | yes | 13:41 |
| paulsher1ood | sold, then. | 13:41 |
| paulsher1ood | next... | 13:42 |
| paulsher1ood | = Tools Team co-ordination with BIT = | 13:42 |
| paulsher1ood | jeremiah: how do you think this would work best? you know all the parties i think | 13:42 |
| pavelk | paulsher1ood: is this about the process in general, or rather about the current issues? | 13:43 |
| paulsher1ood | pavelk: both | 13:43 |
| paulsher1ood | if there are current issues, please raise them | 13:43 |
| pavelk | capi code generation :-) | 13:43 |
| gunnarx | need to remind myself what the issue is here, except for capi already covered | 13:44 |
| pavelk | automated code generation as a part of the build | 13:44 |
| pavelk | this is more of a mid-term issue, to be sure | 13:44 |
| jeremiah | hmm | 13:44 |
| pavelk | there is an interim solution for the current release afaik | 13:45 |
| pavelk | gunnarx: that's what I mean--it is already covered earlier today | 13:45 |
| gunnarx | can't find any more info in TT/Minutes. No trello card right? | 13:45 |
| jeremiah | I think the issue is coordinating GDP with the baselines | 13:46 |
| gunnarx | ah | 13:46 |
| paulsher1ood | yes, i think so too | 13:46 |
| gunnarx | not sure it's a tools issue? | 13:46 |
| jeremiah | Now that we're seeing some fixes of meta-ivi, we seem to have decent communication | 13:46 |
| jeremiah | But that probably needs to be a bit more formal and make its way into PMO | 13:46 |
| gunnarx | I'd say maintainer (of GDP) is the one driving GDP to adopt the latest baseline, basically. anyone see a problem with that principle? | 13:47 |
| jeremiah | Currently we're just watching the meta-ivi mailing list and CTtpollard and folks are picking up things that are happening | 13:47 |
| paulsher1ood | ok, so TT and BIT co-ordination is already hunky-dory? | 13:47 |
| gunnarx | you tell me, who added the item? | 13:47 |
| jeremiah | gunnarx: I'd agree. Perhaps then the GDP maintainer (continues) to be part of the BIT? | 13:47 |
| gunnarx | I'm not aware of what the concern is, that's all | 13:47 |
| gunnarx | ^^ paulsher1ood | 13:48 |
| paulsher1ood | i added it. i'm just checking | 13:48 |
| gunnarx | ok | 13:48 |
| paulsher1ood | if folks are happy, that's fine | 13:48 |
| jeremiah | My worry is that there are bugs and patches lingering on the meta-ivi list | 13:48 |
| jeremiah | But it looks like they're being addressed | 13:48 |
| jeremiah | so perhaps its not the end of the world | 13:48 |
| gunnarx | GDP maintainer welcome to join BIT, I doubt it's necessary all the time. baseline releases aren't that frequent | 13:48 |
| jeremiah | Agreed. | 13:48 |
| gunnarx | jeremiah: valid concern but not something TT will solve probably | 13:49 |
| paulsher1ood | similarly baseline maintainers would be welcome to participate in public here :) | 13:49 |
| jeremiah | :) | 13:49 |
| paulsher1ood | ok moving on then? | 13:49 |
| paulsher1ood | = Build Tools = | 13:50 |
| paulsher1ood | (from the charter) | 13:50 |
| paulsher1ood | anything to discuss on this? | 13:51 |
| gunnarx | ah. I think the charter has already been broken down into topics, items, actions...? | 13:51 |
| gunnarx | e.g. debian principle, franca_automation, sdks... | 13:51 |
| pavelk | ...and approved by the board | 13:51 |
| paulsher1ood | i'm trying to formalize our agenda so we don't miss things in future | 13:51 |
| jeremiah | I think that link that gunnarx discovered last week is important. | 13:51 |
| jeremiah | It feels like a quick way to host sources from a build | 13:52 |
| pavelk | what link? | 13:52 |
| paulsher1ood | please remind me? | 13:52 |
| jeremiah | which can allow use to push binaries | 13:52 |
| jeremiah | Let me find it . . . | 13:52 |
| gunnarx | Ah, ok. recurring topics. I'd say it is more efficient to stick to our cards, but those cards might need to be categorized under that agenda then. | 13:52 |
| jeremiah | http://www.yoctoproject.org/docs/1.8/mega-manual/mega-manual.html#maintaining-open-source-license-compliance-during-your-products-lifecycle | 13:52 |
| gunnarx | cards, tickets - whatever jira calls them them, from now on | 13:52 |
| paulsher1ood | thanks | 13:53 |
| gunnarx | ok, so yeah I've looked at it... | 13:53 |
| gunnarx | had some issues figuring out how it behaves actually, especially when using BB_GENERATE_TARBALLS | 13:53 |
| gunnarx | in some cases it goes out to fetch git from network despite a tarred up git existing... | 13:54 |
| gunnarx | because I've been controlling the source/downloads directory, have not successfully evaluated the results of inheriting "archiver" yet | 13:54 |
| jeremiah | okay, so it might not be ready for our use yet? | 13:55 |
| gunnarx | maybe, anyone feel free to try | 13:55 |
| paulsher1ood | we're running late, folks... | 13:56 |
| gunnarx | results of archiver can be tried independently of my investigations into source mirror part. just build with internet fetching as usual. | 13:56 |
| gunnarx | yeah I have no more to add. | 13:56 |
| gunnarx | paulsher1ood: does anyone own an action on this? | 13:56 |
| paulsher1ood | you and jeremiah, iirc? | 13:57 |
| gunnarx | paulsher1ood: Is all we do on this meeting to have headings, and then people talk about what they think that heading is about? | 13:57 |
| gunnarx | until you think they talk too much? | 13:57 |
| gunnarx | ok, you may be right. | 13:57 |
| paulsher1ood | gunnarx: i dont know, actually. i think i've lost my way here | 13:57 |
| jeremiah | heh | 13:58 |
| gunnarx | I propose, as part of meeting, state the action owners if there is any confusion, so people know they are expected to talk | 13:58 |
| jeremiah | We've also lost some participants along the way | 13:58 |
| gunnarx | turns out jeremiah and I engaged anyhow. I think we can move to the next topic. | 13:58 |
| paulsher1ood | ok | 13:58 |
| paulsher1ood | I propose we can't cover the resty of the agenda in reasonable time | 13:59 |
| *** jacobo has joined #automotive | 13:59 | |
| paulsher1ood | i propose we try a conf call next week to improve things | 13:59 |
| gunnarx | fair enough. | 13:59 |
| gunnarx | you're the boss, don't forget :) | 13:59 |
| gunnarx | might be a good idea, yes, | 13:59 |
| paulsher1ood | that's too complex a topic for 1 mintue | 13:59 |
| gunnarx | agreed | 13:59 |
| paulsher1ood | :) | 13:59 |
| paulsher1ood | AOB? | 14:00 |
| paulsher1ood | anything i should raise at AGL tmrw? | 14:00 |
| gunnarx | is it "layer design meeting"? | 14:00 |
| gunnarx | or something else? | 14:00 |
| paulsher1ood | (since this is time-sensitive) | 14:00 |
| paulsher1ood | AMM | 14:00 |
| jeremiah | paulsher1ood: What are their plans for Lifecycle? | 14:00 |
| philrob | good question | 14:00 |
| paulsher1ood | i meet walt for the first time | 14:00 |
| jeremiah | paulsher1ood: Are they *really* going to use Android's init system? | 14:00 |
| gunnarx | systemd? (ducks) | 14:00 |
| pavelk | what is their stance to genivi compliance in general? | 14:01 |
| gunnarx | wait, what? | 14:01 |
| paulsher1ood | there is some discussion wth Qt folsk that may affect lifecycle for them | 14:01 |
| jeremiah | pavelk: I think they've said they don't aim to be GENIVI compliant | 14:01 |
| pavelk | jeremiah: too bad.... | 14:01 |
| jeremiah | Yep | 14:01 |
| gunnarx | jeremiah: you think? | 14:01 |
| paulsher1ood | jeremiah: i had not heard any mention of android inthat context so far, i may have missed it? | 14:01 |
| paulsher1ood | (or are you trolling? :-) | 14:02 |
| jeremiah | I'll have to look on the mailing list, but I'm pretty sure I heard that in a fairly official capacity. | 14:02 |
| paulsher1ood | really? | 14:02 |
| BjoernC | have to leave now, bye bye | 14:02 |
| jeremiah | Yep | 14:02 |
| paulsher1ood | me too :) | 14:02 |
| gunnarx | I think let's have proper discussions about this, not speculation or rumors. Today seems to be unusually few AGL members in the channel, but I suppose they will catch up on logs. | 14:02 |
| jeremiah | Later BjoernC | 14:02 |
| paulsher1ood | thanks all | 14:02 |
| *** BjoernC has quit IRC | 14:02 | |
| paulsher1ood | == GENIVI Tools Team Meeting Ends == | |